- cross-posted to:
- dach@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- dach@feddit.org
Berlin’s immigration authorities are moving to deport four young foreign residents on allegations related to participation in protests against Israel’s war on Gaza, an unprecedented move that raises serious concerns over civil liberties in Germany.
The deportation orders, issued under German migration law, were made amid political pressure and over internal objections from the head of the state of Berlin’s immigration agency.
The internal strife arose because three of those targeted for deportation are citizens of European Union member states who normally enjoy freedom of movement between E.U. countries. None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.
“What we’re seeing here is straight out of the far right’s playbook,” said Alexander Gorski, a lawyer representing two of the protesters. “You can see it in the U.S. and Germany, too: Political dissent is silenced by targeting the migration status of protesters.”
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Lot of AfD voters in this thread looks like.
The article is borderline. Because it suggests that the people would ONLY be deported because they protested. But, as it says in the article, they SHOULD be deported because they have committed criminal offences. And criminal offences are not just murders or rapes.
And yes, this is exactly what has been demanded for months: Foreign offenders should be deported more quickly and less ruthlessly. Especially if they come from safe countries. Here, for example, Ireland. The fact that these offences were committed in connection with protests doesn’t provide any protection, and I find it extremely sensational to even begin to compare this with what is happening in the USA.
Did you read the same article?
None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.
Each of the four protesters faces separate allegations from the authorities, all of which are sourced from police files and tied to pro-Palestine actions in Berlin.
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest — a so-called de-arrest aimed at blocking a fellow protesters’ detention. None of the protesters are accused of any particular acts of vandalism or the de-arrest at the university. Instead, the deportation order cites the suspicion that they took part in a coordinated group action. (The Free University told The Intercept it had no knowledge of the deportation orders.)
All four are accused, without evidence, of supporting Hamas, a group Germany has designated as a terrorist organization.
All four have, for the meantime, been ordered to leave Germany by April 21, 2025, or face forcible deportation.
Yes, i have:
Under German migration law, authorities don’t need a criminal conviction to issue a deportation order
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest
Some, but not all, of the allegations would correspond to criminal charges in Germany; almost none of them have been brought before a criminal court.
Two, for example, are accused of calling a police officer “fascist” — insulting an officer, which is a crime. Three are accused of demonstrating with groups chanting slogans like “From the river to the sea, Palestine Will be Free” — which was outlawed last year in Germany — and “free Palestine.” Authorities also claim all four shouted antisemitic or anti-Israel slogans, though none are specified.
Two are accused of grabbing an officers’ or another protesters’ arm in an attempt to stop arrests at the train station sit-in.
None of this sounds to me like 4 people who simply took part peacefully in a protest.
The slogan “From the river to the Sea” was “outlawed” by a decree from the interior ministry designating it as a symbol of Hamas. Think of this act like Trump banning DEI. There is no legal consensus on it and various courts have upheld the slogan to be a legitimate expression und the constitutionally protected freedom of speech in Germany.
This is executive order authoritarian style action and entirely different from democratic proceedings, where the parliament passes a law in accordance with the constitution, which then is interpreted by courts and finally enforced by the executive.
Here the legislative and judiciary are cut out.
Hey Saleh, you’re modding /c/nahost and therefore know about the FU attack, which is the real issue here. This is not about someone shouting “From the river to the sea”, this is about a violent group of Hamas supporters causing 100.000€ of property damage. There is no country in the world that wouldn’t kick out foreigners doing that.
https://www.fu-berlin.de/presse/informationen/fup/2024/fup_24_206-versuchte-besetzung/index.html
You know that occupations of universities have a long history in Germany and are both reveered in hindsight and usually tolerated at their time, like the previous occupation of HU in 2017 for Andrej Holm. https://www.hu-berlin.de/de/pr/nachrichten/archiv/nr1701/nr_170131_00
Back then nobody was threatened with deportation.
This is not normal, also not for Germany. Again there is no specific criminal convictions of the people threatened now.
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest
I highlighted it already. Not sure why you are trying to quote other paragraphs out of context. Here it is again
None of the protesters are accused of any particular acts of vandalism or the de-arrest at the university
Under German migration law, authorities don’t need a criminal conviction to issue a deportation order
Okay clearly you are not even interested whether the students were guilty. The essense of your argument condenses to
“Yes but unlike in America, in Germany this is legal!”
And I fail to see how it makes it any better that Germany is deporting people demonstrating against genocide, simply because you believe it is legal (which it probably is not according to international human rights laws, which Germany is supposed to follow).
I have inserted the sentence again because you apparently only read the last part and had overlooked the part about the building occupation and damage to property.
Okay clearly you are not even interested whether the students were guilty.
You may be surprised, but** I** don’t make the laws.
And I fail to see how it makes it any better that Germany is deporting people demonstrating against genocide
Then you should read the article again. Because almost 50% of the article consists of explaining what these 4 people are accused of and are - apparently - NOT simply protesting.
None of the protesters are accused of any particular acts of vandalism or the de-arrest at the university
But enough other things…
Other people present at the same protest are accused of doing these things. Not these people. Scroll up to the article summary I posted
None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.
this is exactly what has been demanded for months
Demanded by whom exactly? And if you say SPD, CxU, and FDP, please look a bit deeper where that demand came from originally.
Demanded by whom exactly
Many people from **all **political spectrum, especially after attacks like the one just before the last general election.
The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views. The fact that a socially and financially(!) disastrous populist bullshit “solution” like deportations seeped so far into the German mainstream is at best worrying.
The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views.
While I agree with you that especially the AfD is keen on deportations in a scale as big as possible, wouldn’t you agree that a system that allows for - please excuse the technical terms - inflow must also have a mechanism of outflow? I.e. deportations in itself are a ‘necessary evil’?
I do think we’d do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall. To which I am not going to be able to produce a definitive answer here. But as a society we should absolutely try to look at the negatives that deportations bring with themselves vs. e.g. prison sentences for actual offenders and better social and integration services. Instead, our political discourse has moved toward enabling mass deportations and toward making it impossible to fight deportations.
Also, do remember, that without immigration, all Western societies would be shrinking fast, endangering social systems built on society-wide contribution.
I do think we’d do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall.
To regularly question the applied mechanisms in our society is something I’d also agree to. Also, I acknowledge the hardships deportations can impose, hence I think it is a tool that should only be used with consideration and absolutely not in the way e.g. the AfD wants to use it.
I also absolutely agree with you that we are dependent on immigration and also immensely benefit from it. But I also think that in order for something like our immigration system to retain the trust of the people and to function properly, it must have the possibility to be a ‘breathing’ system instead of a one way-only. That means also having the tool to have people leave again. Trying to abolish the rights to hospitality for a host entirely will only see the people flock to those parties that seek to detonate the migration system as a whole.
And I guess we both agree that this would be the worst outcome of all.
We can agree on the final sentence. However, I find it exceedingly unlikely that we’ll arrive anywhere than at a terrible outcome if we continue compromising on both human rights-based asylum as well as on educational/professional migration. The way to remove irrational and inhumane sentiments from political discourse cannot be giving in to irrational demands gradually. The “center of the political spectrum” is not a place to stand on, it’s always shifting position, if you bind yourself to that, so are you. Political positions should instead be derived from scientific observation of reality and should then optimize for good outcomes for the largest number of people.
The article is borderline.
Yes, there is a very apparent spin. There is much emphasis on the facts that “almost none” of the allegations have been brought before a criminal court and no-one of them has been convicted, while only a few lines earlier/later also stating that a conviction is not needed for a deportation under German migration law (but it also isn’t a free-for-all for the state and that proportionality has to be observed!).
Hence, should the state decide to deport them, this is something they would do instead of charging them before court.
Some of the allegations are minor. Two, for example, are accused of calling a police officer “fascist” — insulting an officer, which is a crime.
Well, calling a member of the German state apparatus a “fascist” is not only - for obvious reasons - a very dumb idea but also something I - and especially them - wouldn’t necessarily consider “minor”. Also, it is, despite long existing layman’s opinions, not a crime to insult an officer, but to insult a person. It is as punishable insulting an officer as anybody else.
The entire world seems to be turning dystopian
Ffs…
With the US going full blown fascist, it seems everyone has forgotten that neoliberalism sews the seeds for fascism, and the EU is more neoliberal and oligarchical than it is socialist and egalitarian.
As long as neoliberals and conservatives continue working to enrich the few, while screwing workers and pointing their fingers at immigrants, the EU will continue shifting right until fascism is absolute.
If you want to save democracy you have to redistribute wealth. It’s the only way to prevent the slip and slide towards fascism.
If they really want to deport foreigners they should start with the old-fashioned antisemites that mingle in those protests.
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